Well, one thing I am very happy about is that if it does come down to McCain vs.Obama it is going to be about the issues. Sure, they might be a feeble attempt by the right to go back to the fear based divisiveness but I think it will ultimately fail.
Unfortunately it's going to turn out to be a popularity contest, and Obama wins that one. Those of us willing to hold our noses and vote McCain will be, I'm afraid, far outnumbered by those swooning to Barack Obama's cult of personality.
Kevin, you're welcome to ask my grandfather if it really happened. He's got plenty of great stories beyond that one.
As I have said before, good luck attacking Obama the way Hillary and Bill have been attacked. I would love to see a personal attack on him. I think I might need a garbage bag full of popcorn for that one :)
Laugh at me all you want but it was Rush Limbaugh who said that an Obama v McCain contest would be about the issues. And speaking of issues...how's this for specifics?
Do I believe your grandfather's story about surrendering Japanese? Sure. AFTER the American military killed 90%+ of their fellow soldiers and secured the area, I have no doubt that "popcorn and movie nights" drew some of the stragglers who hid out.
My objection to your anecdote (which you - unsurprisingly - failed to grasp) was your suggestion that this would work on organized combat troops. Such a belief strains even my acceptance of your truly awesome gullibility and "utopianism-without-illusion".
WRT to Rush Limbaugh, he also said that he's "McCain's most valuable asset." Sometimes you just can't tell when he's being sarcastic from when he's being deranged. You can usually tell with, say, Ann Coulter. Derangement there is accompanied with mouth foam.
Kevin, the side effects of the results of the Democratic nomination are impossible to predict. In particular, Obama is getting roughly half of the Dimocrat turnout in the primaries. Once he wins the nomination, will he get the other half during the general election? What will Clinton's supporters do? Do they support her party as much as they support her? There is as much derangement involved with her supporters as with anyone's. Until now, the MSM and others haven't had much reason to speculate on this question.
Point is, a prediction that McCain would lose to Obama just isn't warranted at this point.
And those are bullet-points, not plans. They all sound wonderful, if you don't think about them.
RESTORE FAIRNESS TO THE TAX CODE
Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families - AKA "Tax the rich."
Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) estimated in 2004 that it took more than 28 hours for an individual to complete his/her tax filing, and that half of the taxpayers filing the “easy” forms ended up paying a tax preparer to do it for them. Barack Obama will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than 5 minutes. - Really? Will he wave a magic wand? Write an executive order? Pull FBI files and blackmail congresscritters? How will he achieve this wonderous promise?
Fix Our Health Care Crisis: Barack Obama is committed to signing universal health legislation by the end of his first term in office that nsures all Americans have igh-quality, affordable health care. - Oh, I bet he is. Again, he's going to accomplish this... how? Because I'm a voter, and I'm going to fight him tooth-and-nail over it.
But mostly what I see here is spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, and tax "the rich" to pay for it all. Sure, let's shift the tax burden completely to the top, oh, 10% of income earners. That's "fair," isn't it?
I think my favorite among all of these is this one, though:
Encourage Responsible Lending Institutions to Make Small Consumer Loans - so that when they default he can Ensure More Accountability in the Subprime Mortgage Industry - err, excuse me, the Small Consumer Loan Industry. Those predatory BASTARDS!
What is the core fallacy, Kevin? It is that "he's gonna do this" and "he's gonna do that", as if he's gonna be emperor, king, or dictator instead of President, and so could simply do what he wants by fiat. That sad part is that people buy into it through sheer ignorance of how the feddle gubmint works. The dumbing down of the electorate continues.
Maybe we will. McCain v. Obama is a fairly safe prediction at this point, barring something really underhanded (i.e. desperate) by the Clintons, but that is a prediction that is beyond all of us.
The vast majority of whom owe Bill, at least. And they're part of the "new" Democrat power structure.
But their constituents are more Obama-supporters.
So, do they pay back their tab? Vote Hillary? Vote the way their voters would want?
The backrooms are gonna be filled with smoke for this convention, that's for damn sure. I wouldn't wanna be a hog anywhere near there - you'd be traded 20 times an hour.
(Isn't this the party bitching about the eccentric bullshit of the Electoral College?)
McCain v. Obama is a fairly safe prediction at this point, barring something really underhanded (i.e. desperate) by the Clintons, but that is a prediction that is beyond all of us.
I stand by my earlier statement: Put Obama and McCain on a stage together in front of TV cameras, and a public that is obsessed with American Idol isn't going to vote for the cadaver.
It's going to be, mostly, a popularity contest, and Obama is "NEW!" and "DIFFERENT" and "CHANGE!" McCain is old, drab, and establishment.
People would come out in droves to vote AGAINST Hillary. People will stay home in droves to not vote for McCain.
My prediction is a low turnout, and Obama by 60:40.
Unix, you should have heard Sean Hannity today. I listened to part of his radio show for the first time ever as I was out and about this afternoon. I just turned on the radio, hit "AM" and "scan", and there he was, so I listened for a bit.
He listed lots of categories of superdelegates and recited reason after reason why they might not support Clinton, given that Obama continues to kick her kazoo in the primaries. He's the expert on such, not me, but he made a strong case.
As I've stated in Kevin's parlor before, Hillary Clingon's MO is quite simple: Her message to others is, "I'm trying to become the President. If I succeed and you have opposed me, I'll crush you like a bug. Don't fuck with me." That's her style, her method, and her reputation.
Now, suppose it appears she's gonna lose. Will the rats leave the sinking ship? Will the superdelegates perceive a safe opportunity to put a political knife in her back, and would they individually enjoy doing so? That's the unpredictable aspect of this situation, methinks.
Hillary Clinton's MO is quite simple: Her message to others is, "I'm trying to become the President. If I succeed and you have opposed me, I'll crush you like a bug. Don't fuck with me." That's her style, her method, and her reputation.
Yup. And lot of them owe their current position/donors/support to her.
If they don't support her, and she wins... Or she yanks her support/supporters as she starts to bide her time if she's thwarted (remember Hsu was not just donating to Hillary, but whole hosts of "lesser" Democrats in local offices...)
I'll tell you what, the entertainment of the swordfight that's coming up might - might - even make up for the disaster of the Republican nomination.
Will the superdelegates perceive a safe opportunity to put a political knife in her back, and would they individually enjoy doing so?
I meant to say:
Or, can they find a plausible reason why they had to shift their support.
"Well, Sam said he was shifting his vote, and I had to trade him, cause my district is 80% Obama... but he didn't.."
"I voted for you the first time, but after that, it was a done deal..."
I don't think anybody's willing to knife her in the back obviously. They're Democrats, but they're not THAT stupid!
Obama "The Empty" would be a great name for him in King Arthur's court. A man with little to show for his pedigree to run for President. See link for an interesting take.
Kevin, my point is that you don't need to torture people to get the truth. Thankfully, I have the backing of most people in the Pentagon, who cringe when they see episodes of 24 and bemoan its unreality.
DJ, absolutely correct. We don't know anything at this point and your questions are interesting. Will Obama bring Hillary's people out? I tend to think so but I have met a few people that don't like him and pine for the Clinton days.
"going to the Superdelegates now."
Maybe. They may owe Bill but they want to win. With 29 Republican congressmen at Shady Oaks retirement home, a plethora of Senators up for re-election, they sense a chance for big victory that could trump favors from Bill..which jibes with DJ's comment I just read.
"the entertainment of the swordfight that's coming up might"
It would be fun. If Obama wins Ohio, though, it may not happen. Hey, you guys should check out this site.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
It is no no nonsense look at polls, who's up for re-election, and has lots of cool maps. It is updated every day.
6Kings, compare Obama to Lincoln when he was running, as far as experience and accomplishments go....:)
I liked this, so I'll just throw it in. From a post at Betsy's Page:
...we could find ourselves with a president elected on waves of emotion and fantasy. Then we’ll face a moment similar to that last line in that great political movie from the 1970s, The Candidate, when the handsome charismatic Robert Redford character who has campaigned on his looks and with meaningless slogans (sound familiar) wins the race and then turns to his campaign advisers and asks “What do we do now?” How do you govern when all you have a mandate for is “change” and inspiration? How can Obama keep his image of being above politics when his followers will be waiting for him to enact some sort of real change? How long will the fantasy of Obama last through the realities of governing?
I have a feeling that, unfortunately, we'll find out.
Man there sure is some random sequential neurons firing off... A lot of radar hits on breaking wave-tops seem to form a pattern of some sort, but there isn't one.
I guess that means we're going to have another Civil War?
Great! I know which side has the most guns! And the most military experience.
Yeah, but last time the side with the guys who had the guns at home, and almost all the trained Army officers didn't do so well.
On the other hand, the arms factories aren't in the mostly-Democratic areas, which makes a big difference.
Hah. Compare Obama and Lincoln.
That's not a good comparison for Obama. Other than he gives a far better speech. I don't think someone here's ever seriously read Lincoln's speeches and writings. He certainly never claimed amorphous "Change" as his goal or promise...
Mark, I try to keep a simplistic view of life. The model that I have found helpful in understanding almost everything in life is the pyramid. This model, with some modifications, can generally be appled to everything. Example: Economics..Free markets, capitalism depends on the pyramid model to succeed, you need a base of workers, foremen, managers, etc. Liberalism ie. socialism turns the pyramid upside down and then can't understand why it falls, causing disaster.
Look around you, in nature, families, communities, politics, the sciences, anywhere you try to turn the pyramid upside down it is sure to cause great calamities.
But..I just try to break things down so that I can understand them, that's why I will never be able to become a Liberal. I'm not a deep thinker like you Liberals, if it seems to make sense I am generally satisfied with that without going any further.
This is why when the Liberals drive their egalitarian steamroller over the pyramids of life all you end up with is a flat, barren socialistic/communistic landscape.
"What, no comment on my analysis of Obama's bullet-points?"
When I have more time tomorrow....
"we could find ourselves with a president elected on waves of emotion and fantasy"
You mean like when the conservative movement elected Bush? That's pretty much what happened.
Dennis, short comment now...more tomorrow. There are plenty of liberals who aren't deep thinkers and I still say you have a very distorted view of liberalism in this country. If you look at Obama's economic plan, it calls for new industry and new jobs, not government handouts. Remember, too, that he is not mandating health care. That's Hillary.
The government cannot create new industry or new jobs. The only thing that they can do is get out of the way and let the free market system work. They can quit taxing businesses to death. Obama understands that but does not agree with it because he is a socialist.
There is a book that you need to read, ' The True Believer' by Eric Hoffer.
http://www.erichoffer.net/
Note:
All avatars and any images or other media embedded in comments were hosted on the JS-Kit website and have been lost;
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If you notice any problems with this page or wish to have your home page link updated, please contact John Hardin <jhardin@impsec.org>
JS-Kit/Echo comments for article at http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2008/02/quote-of-day_13.html (34 comments)
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meh.
Well, one thing I am very happy about is that if it does come down to McCain vs.Obama it is going to be about the issues. Sure, they might be a feeble attempt by the right to go back to the fear based divisiveness but I think it will ultimately fail.
Well, one thing I am very happy about is that if it does come down to McCain vs.Obama it is going to be about the issues.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!
First it's "popcorn & movie nights" in the Pacific, and you one-up yourself AGAIN with "it's about the issues"!
Obama v. McCain will be as much about "issues" as "Survivor" is about "quality television."
Kim du Toit has the right of it I think:
"But in the end, I love my country more than I hate John McCain"
http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/tos/single/11492/
Unfortunately it's going to turn out to be a popularity contest, and Obama wins that one. Those of us willing to hold our noses and vote McCain will be, I'm afraid, far outnumbered by those swooning to Barack Obama's cult of personality.
Kevin, you're welcome to ask my grandfather if it really happened. He's got plenty of great stories beyond that one.
As I have said before, good luck attacking Obama the way Hillary and Bill have been attacked. I would love to see a personal attack on him. I think I might need a garbage bag full of popcorn for that one :)
Laugh at me all you want but it was Rush Limbaugh who said that an Obama v McCain contest would be about the issues. And speaking of issues...how's this for specifics?
http://obama.3cdn.net/8f478c5e1bb07ca0b1_sh1umv2zy.pdf
Mark, Mark, Mark...
You always miss the point.
Do I believe your grandfather's story about surrendering Japanese? Sure. AFTER the American military killed 90%+ of their fellow soldiers and secured the area, I have no doubt that "popcorn and movie nights" drew some of the stragglers who hid out.
My objection to your anecdote (which you - unsurprisingly - failed to grasp) was your suggestion that this would work on organized combat troops. Such a belief strains even my acceptance of your truly awesome gullibility and "utopianism-without-illusion".
WRT to Rush Limbaugh, he also said that he's "McCain's most valuable asset." Sometimes you just can't tell when he's being sarcastic from when he's being deranged. You can usually tell with, say, Ann Coulter. Derangement there is accompanied with mouth foam.
Kevin, the side effects of the results of the Democratic nomination are impossible to predict. In particular, Obama is getting roughly half of the Dimocrat turnout in the primaries. Once he wins the nomination, will he get the other half during the general election? What will Clinton's supporters do? Do they support her party as much as they support her? There is as much derangement involved with her supporters as with anyone's. Until now, the MSM and others haven't had much reason to speculate on this question.
Point is, a prediction that McCain would lose to Obama just isn't warranted at this point.
We'll see, won't we?
How about them "Patriot Corporations" they're selling huh? Remind you of anything?
How about them "Patriot Corporations" they're selling huh? Remind you of anything?
NEIN!
Markadelphia:
What do I think about
http://obama.3cdn.net/8f478c5e1bb07ca0b1_sh1umv2zy.pdf
??
This is a good start:
http://www.gop.com/obamaspendometer.htm
And those are bullet-points, not plans. They all sound wonderful, if you don't think about them.
RESTORE FAIRNESS TO THE TAX CODE
Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families - AKA "Tax the rich."
Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) estimated in 2004 that it took more than 28 hours for an individual to complete his/her tax filing, and that half of the taxpayers filing the “easy” forms ended up paying a tax preparer to do it for them. Barack Obama will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than 5 minutes. - Really? Will he wave a magic wand? Write an executive order? Pull FBI files and blackmail congresscritters? How will he achieve this wonderous promise?
Fix Our Health Care Crisis: Barack Obama is committed to signing universal health legislation by the end of his first term in office that nsures all Americans have igh-quality, affordable health care. - Oh, I bet he is. Again, he's going to accomplish this... how? Because I'm a voter, and I'm going to fight him tooth-and-nail over it.
But mostly what I see here is spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, and tax "the rich" to pay for it all. Sure, let's shift the tax burden completely to the top, oh, 10% of income earners. That's "fair," isn't it?
I think my favorite among all of these is this one, though:
Encourage Responsible Lending Institutions to Make Small Consumer Loans - so that when they default he can Ensure More Accountability in the Subprime Mortgage Industry - err, excuse me, the Small Consumer Loan Industry. Those predatory BASTARDS!
What is the core fallacy, Kevin? It is that "he's gonna do this" and "he's gonna do that", as if he's gonna be emperor, king, or dictator instead of President, and so could simply do what he wants by fiat. That sad part is that people buy into it through sheer ignorance of how the feddle gubmint works. The dumbing down of the electorate continues.
"We'll see, won't we?"
Maybe we will. McCain v. Obama is a fairly safe prediction at this point, barring something really underhanded (i.e. desperate) by the Clintons, but that is a prediction that is beyond all of us.
DJ:
Not quite.
It's definitely going to the Superdelegates now.
The vast majority of whom owe Bill, at least. And they're part of the "new" Democrat power structure.
But their constituents are more Obama-supporters.
So, do they pay back their tab? Vote Hillary? Vote the way their voters would want?
The backrooms are gonna be filled with smoke for this convention, that's for damn sure. I wouldn't wanna be a hog anywhere near there - you'd be traded 20 times an hour.
(Isn't this the party bitching about the eccentric bullshit of the Electoral College?)
McCain v. Obama is a fairly safe prediction at this point, barring something really underhanded (i.e. desperate) by the Clintons, but that is a prediction that is beyond all of us.
I stand by my earlier statement: Put Obama and McCain on a stage together in front of TV cameras, and a public that is obsessed with American Idol isn't going to vote for the cadaver.
It's going to be, mostly, a popularity contest, and Obama is "NEW!" and "DIFFERENT" and "CHANGE!" McCain is old, drab, and establishment.
People would come out in droves to vote AGAINST Hillary. People will stay home in droves to not vote for McCain.
My prediction is a low turnout, and Obama by 60:40.
As I said, we'll see.
Unix, you should have heard Sean Hannity today. I listened to part of his radio show for the first time ever as I was out and about this afternoon. I just turned on the radio, hit "AM" and "scan", and there he was, so I listened for a bit.
He listed lots of categories of superdelegates and recited reason after reason why they might not support Clinton, given that Obama continues to kick her kazoo in the primaries. He's the expert on such, not me, but he made a strong case.
As I've stated in Kevin's parlor before, Hillary Clingon's MO is quite simple: Her message to others is, "I'm trying to become the President. If I succeed and you have opposed me, I'll crush you like a bug. Don't fuck with me." That's her style, her method, and her reputation.
Now, suppose it appears she's gonna lose. Will the rats leave the sinking ship? Will the superdelegates perceive a safe opportunity to put a political knife in her back, and would they individually enjoy doing so? That's the unpredictable aspect of this situation, methinks.
As Radar would say, "Wait for it."
"People would come out in droves to vote AGAINST Hillary. People will stay home in droves to not vote for McCain."
Yup, I agree.
"My prediction is a low turnout, and Obama by 60:40."
I won't make such a prediction, but such a result wouldn't surprise me. The response by Clinton's supporters to her loss is a wild card.
As you said, we'll see.
DJ:
Hillary Clinton's MO is quite simple: Her message to others is, "I'm trying to become the President. If I succeed and you have opposed me, I'll crush you like a bug. Don't fuck with me." That's her style, her method, and her reputation.
Yup. And lot of them owe their current position/donors/support to her.
If they don't support her, and she wins... Or she yanks her support/supporters as she starts to bide her time if she's thwarted (remember Hsu was not just donating to Hillary, but whole hosts of "lesser" Democrats in local offices...)
I'll tell you what, the entertainment of the swordfight that's coming up might - might - even make up for the disaster of the Republican nomination.
Oh, oh,
Will the superdelegates perceive a safe opportunity to put a political knife in her back, and would they individually enjoy doing so?
I meant to say:
Or, can they find a plausible reason why they had to shift their support.
"Well, Sam said he was shifting his vote, and I had to trade him, cause my district is 80% Obama... but he didn't.."
"I voted for you the first time, but after that, it was a done deal..."
I don't think anybody's willing to knife her in the back obviously. They're Democrats, but they're not THAT stupid!
Obama "The Empty" would be a great name for him in King Arthur's court. A man with little to show for his pedigree to run for President. See link for an interesting take.
http://www.mwilliams.info/archive/2008/02/name-one-accomplishment-by-obama.php
I guess if you can generalize enough, be a minority, and have charisma, you don't need anything else. The Electorate is just plain ignorant.
The backrooms are gonna be filled with smoke for this convention
You do have to wonder, what KIND of smoke is gonna fill those rooms.
I'm just saying...
Kevin, my point is that you don't need to torture people to get the truth. Thankfully, I have the backing of most people in the Pentagon, who cringe when they see episodes of 24 and bemoan its unreality.
DJ, absolutely correct. We don't know anything at this point and your questions are interesting. Will Obama bring Hillary's people out? I tend to think so but I have met a few people that don't like him and pine for the Clinton days.
"going to the Superdelegates now."
Maybe. They may owe Bill but they want to win. With 29 Republican congressmen at Shady Oaks retirement home, a plethora of Senators up for re-election, they sense a chance for big victory that could trump favors from Bill..which jibes with DJ's comment I just read.
"the entertainment of the swordfight that's coming up might"
It would be fun. If Obama wins Ohio, though, it may not happen. Hey, you guys should check out this site.
http://www.electoral-vote.com/
It is no no nonsense look at polls, who's up for re-election, and has lots of cool maps. It is updated every day.
6Kings, compare Obama to Lincoln when he was running, as far as experience and accomplishments go....:)
Juris, nice....
Kevin, my point is that you don't need to torture people to get the truth.
I'm sorry, I must've missed that point. Where did you make it? In the "popcorn & movie night" comment, or the "issues" comment?
What, no comment on my analysis of Obama's bullet-points?
I liked this, so I'll just throw it in. From a post at Betsy's Page:
...we could find ourselves with a president elected on waves of emotion and fantasy. Then we’ll face a moment similar to that last line in that great political movie from the 1970s, The Candidate, when the handsome charismatic Robert Redford character who has campaigned on his looks and with meaningless slogans (sound familiar) wins the race and then turns to his campaign advisers and asks “What do we do now?” How do you govern when all you have a mandate for is “change” and inspiration? How can Obama keep his image of being above politics when his followers will be waiting for him to enact some sort of real change? How long will the fantasy of Obama last through the realities of governing?
I have a feeling that, unfortunately, we'll find out.
...compare Obama to Lincoln when he was running, as far as experience and accomplishments go....
I guess that means we're going to have another Civil War?
Great! I know which side has the most guns! And the most military experience.
Man there sure is some random sequential neurons firing off... A lot of radar hits on breaking wave-tops seem to form a pattern of some sort, but there isn't one.
I guess that means we're going to have another Civil War?
Great! I know which side has the most guns! And the most military experience.
Yeah, but last time the side with the guys who had the guns at home, and almost all the trained Army officers didn't do so well.
On the other hand, the arms factories aren't in the mostly-Democratic areas, which makes a big difference.
Hah. Compare Obama and Lincoln.
That's not a good comparison for Obama. Other than he gives a far better speech. I don't think someone here's ever seriously read Lincoln's speeches and writings. He certainly never claimed amorphous "Change" as his goal or promise...
Mark, I try to keep a simplistic view of life. The model that I have found helpful in understanding almost everything in life is the pyramid. This model, with some modifications, can generally be appled to everything. Example: Economics..Free markets, capitalism depends on the pyramid model to succeed, you need a base of workers, foremen, managers, etc. Liberalism ie. socialism turns the pyramid upside down and then can't understand why it falls, causing disaster.
Look around you, in nature, families, communities, politics, the sciences, anywhere you try to turn the pyramid upside down it is sure to cause great calamities.
But..I just try to break things down so that I can understand them, that's why I will never be able to become a Liberal. I'm not a deep thinker like you Liberals, if it seems to make sense I am generally satisfied with that without going any further.
This is why when the Liberals drive their egalitarian steamroller over the pyramids of life all you end up with is a flat, barren socialistic/communistic landscape.
"What, no comment on my analysis of Obama's bullet-points?"
When I have more time tomorrow....
"we could find ourselves with a president elected on waves of emotion and fantasy"
You mean like when the conservative movement elected Bush? That's pretty much what happened.
Dennis, short comment now...more tomorrow. There are plenty of liberals who aren't deep thinkers and I still say you have a very distorted view of liberalism in this country. If you look at Obama's economic plan, it calls for new industry and new jobs, not government handouts. Remember, too, that he is not mandating health care. That's Hillary.
The government cannot create new industry or new jobs. The only thing that they can do is get out of the way and let the free market system work. They can quit taxing businesses to death. Obama understands that but does not agree with it because he is a socialist.
You mean like when the conservative movement elected Bush? That's pretty much what happened.
The waves of emotion were all coming from the left side of the political aisle.
Mark,
There is a book that you need to read, ' The True Believer' by Eric Hoffer.
http://www.erichoffer.net/
Note: All avatars and any images or other media embedded in comments were hosted on the JS-Kit website and have been lost; references to haloscan comments have been partially automatically remapped, but accuracy is not guaranteed and corrections are solicited.
If you notice any problems with this page or wish to have your home page link updated, please contact John Hardin <jhardin@impsec.org>