Unfortunately, he got one big fact - very, very wrong. The origins of the 9/11 perps were not Afghanistan and Somalia; the vast majority of them were from our great allies [/sarcasm] the Saudi kingdom. Why are we so adept at overlooking that?
Heavy Saudi investments in the USA may be one reason. The fact that chaos in Saudi arabia would plunge the world into a serious oil shortage may be another...
Bin Laden IS a Saudi. His radicalism is rooted in Saudi Wahhabism. The ideology and money we are fighting against flows forth from the Arabian peninsula - not from the impoverished lands of Afghanistan and Somalia, let alone from Iraq.
As for Somalia as inspiration, that may have been the final note, but our weakness was displayed in how we reacted in Iran in '79 and Lebanon in '83, and the half-measures and indifference we displayed in Iraq in '91.
Don't kid yourself. Our enemies know us better then we know ourselves.
But by the same token, reducing everything down to "Saudiya is evil" will leave out a lot of the picture.
Certainly not my intent. To return to the original analogy, although attacked by Imperial Japan, our first campaign was against Nazi Germany - in North Africa. Indirection isn't necessarily a bad thing - as long as you know what your end-game is going to be. I don't think we have much of a clue of what that should be in this 'war'.
The end-game is a stable Middle East with a number of "liberal democratic" popular governments and a de-radicalized population.
It's the path to that end-game that's almost completely obscure.
Somewhere between Step First and Step Last there seems to be Step "And Then a MIRACLE Occurs!"
But we've taken Step First, and Second and Third and more. The way behind us is blocked, the terrain on either side is deadly dangerous, and there seems - at least to me - to be no better option than to continue on.
We've been down a similar, though not identical path before.
The end-game is a stable Middle East with a number of "liberal democratic" popular governments and a de-radicalized population.
You are kidding right - making fun of the neo-cons.
I mean, what's the expectation based on - the history of the region, an understanding of it's culture, or the fevered fantasies of ex-liberals?
"And Then a MIRACLE Occurs!"
Ah, I get it. It's another faith-based initiative.
... no better option than to continue on.
Well, if we eventually are intending to kick the Saudis off of their peninsula (at which point the lefties will be right that it really was all about the oil), then this might be a 'plan'. If not, we've stumbled into a nest of vipers and decided that we might as well stay a while and see if we can't fix the place up a bit.
That's too bad Kevin. As I see it, the ME'ers who ARE like us vote with their feet. The rest like the old ways just fine - which renders the stable, liberal (in the traditional sense), democratic vision a utopian fantasy.
What's the alternative, juris? Wait until one nation or the other finally builds a nuke, shoves it in a shipping container, and destroys a port city in the name of Allah?
Then we go medieval on their asses?
Because, when you get right down to it, it is about The Lightning.
Lots of flaws in The Lightning - which ironically enough casts credibility on the "its the oil" ravings of the lefties.
The alternative Kevin? There are many I would think. Ranging from doing nothing to turning the ME into the worlds largest glass quarry. If I have to choose between Realpolitik and neo-conservative nation building, I'll go for the former - it has a basis in reality.
Note:
All avatars and any images or other media embedded in comments were hosted on the JS-Kit website and have been lost;
references to haloscan comments have been partially automatically remapped, but accuracy is not guaranteed and corrections are solicited.
If you notice any problems with this page or wish to have your home page link updated, please contact John Hardin <jhardin@impsec.org>
JS-Kit/Echo comments for article at http://smallestminority.blogspot.com/2007/11/quote-of-day_11.html (14 comments)
Tentative mapping of comments to original article, corrections solicited.
Great article today in my paper.
http://www.startribune.com/south/story/1542388.html
Happy Veteran's Day!
Unfortunately, he got one big fact - very, very wrong. The origins of the 9/11 perps were not Afghanistan and Somalia; the vast majority of them were from our great allies [/sarcasm] the Saudi kingdom. Why are we so adept at overlooking that?
Heavy Saudi investments in the USA may be one reason. The fact that chaos in Saudi arabia would plunge the world into a serious oil shortage may be another...
juris, he meant the planners and their inspriation, not the drones. Bin Laden was in Afghanistan, and was "inspired" by Somalia.
Bin Laden IS a Saudi. His radicalism is rooted in Saudi Wahhabism. The ideology and money we are fighting against flows forth from the Arabian peninsula - not from the impoverished lands of Afghanistan and Somalia, let alone from Iraq.
As for Somalia as inspiration, that may have been the final note, but our weakness was displayed in how we reacted in Iran in '79 and Lebanon in '83, and the half-measures and indifference we displayed in Iraq in '91.
Don't kid yourself. Our enemies know us better then we know ourselves.
I don't think you need to convince anyone here of Saudi malfesance.
But by the same token, reducing everything down to "Saudiya is evil" will leave out a lot of the picture.
Who says we defeated the communists?
The commies aren't gone, they're just regrouping under the 'collectivist' and 'progressive' monikers.
You needn't look any further than South America (or perhaps NY) to see that.
But by the same token, reducing everything down to "Saudiya is evil" will leave out a lot of the picture.
Certainly not my intent. To return to the original analogy, although attacked by Imperial Japan, our first campaign was against Nazi Germany - in North Africa. Indirection isn't necessarily a bad thing - as long as you know what your end-game is going to be. I don't think we have much of a clue of what that should be in this 'war'.
The end-game is a stable Middle East with a number of "liberal democratic" popular governments and a de-radicalized population.
It's the path to that end-game that's almost completely obscure.
Somewhere between Step First and Step Last there seems to be Step "And Then a MIRACLE Occurs!"
But we've taken Step First, and Second and Third and more. The way behind us is blocked, the terrain on either side is deadly dangerous, and there seems - at least to me - to be no better option than to continue on.
We've been down a similar, though not identical path before.
The end-game is a stable Middle East with a number of "liberal democratic" popular governments and a de-radicalized population.
You are kidding right - making fun of the neo-cons.
I mean, what's the expectation based on - the history of the region, an understanding of it's culture, or the fevered fantasies of ex-liberals?
"And Then a MIRACLE Occurs!"
Ah, I get it. It's another faith-based initiative.
... no better option than to continue on.
Well, if we eventually are intending to kick the Saudis off of their peninsula (at which point the lefties will be right that it really was all about the oil), then this might be a 'plan'. If not, we've stumbled into a nest of vipers and decided that we might as well stay a while and see if we can't fix the place up a bit.
No. I'm not kidding.
That's too bad Kevin. As I see it, the ME'ers who ARE like us vote with their feet. The rest like the old ways just fine - which renders the stable, liberal (in the traditional sense), democratic vision a utopian fantasy.
What's the alternative, juris? Wait until one nation or the other finally builds a nuke, shoves it in a shipping container, and destroys a port city in the name of Allah?
Then we go medieval on their asses?
Because, when you get right down to it, it is about The Lightning.
Lots of flaws in The Lightning - which ironically enough casts credibility on the "its the oil" ravings of the lefties.
The alternative Kevin? There are many I would think. Ranging from doing nothing to turning the ME into the worlds largest glass quarry. If I have to choose between Realpolitik and neo-conservative nation building, I'll go for the former - it has a basis in reality.
Note: All avatars and any images or other media embedded in comments were hosted on the JS-Kit website and have been lost; references to haloscan comments have been partially automatically remapped, but accuracy is not guaranteed and corrections are solicited.
If you notice any problems with this page or wish to have your home page link updated, please contact John Hardin <jhardin@impsec.org>